Will the Real Christians Please Stand?
Posted: Monday, December 20, 2004

Re: Do other Creatures Quarell about the Creator??

Response by Ayinde
December 05, 2004

Much of the debate about Selassie's views on Christianity has been available online for a long time, so if some have a problem with them, it may be because they do not agree with some of the things Selassie said and did. In that case they should feel free enough to simply say so. I am of the view that Selassie could not understand the effect of colonialism on Africans, and why some would have considered him their Saviour/God. I would not expect an Emperor to understand that. Admitting that one does not agree with his position on some things does not take away from the symbolic presence that he was.

The problem is that some people feel that to follow Selassie means to take everything literally, and suspend their own discerning ability.

Garvey and Selassie did not understand the context of dreadlocks, marijuana and so many things that were already taking place in the Caribbean before their time. I have respect for their efforts, but I do not agree with everything they did. Admitting these things does not diminish the contribution these people made to the development of Africans as well as others.

Having a more realistic view of these people (without demonizing them) can allow many to appreciate their own discerning abilities

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Re: Do other Creatures Quarell about the Creator??

Response by rasi
December 05, 2004

Please elaborate on your conclusion that His Majesty did not understand the effects of colonialism. I am of the view that if you live on a contininent that is/has been colonized, and you are a leader/Emporer you are most likely to understand the effects of colonialism on Africans, since he. himself is an African.

How do you know that His Majesty or Marcus Garvey did not understnd the context of locked hair-I am confident that they both were aware of the Nazarene vow, and how it pertains to not taking a razor to the head.

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Re: Do other Creatures Quarell about the Creator??

Response by Ayinde
December 05, 2004

I explained that in my view Selassie did not appear to understand why Africans in the Caribbean would prefer to accept him as their 'savoir and messiah' rather than the Jesus that had been handed to them through the colonizing effects of Christianity. This is quite evident and has been explained by others on this board. Selassie clearly stated that he was not Jesus Christ reincarnated and that there were people in Jamaica that believed he was so. He encouraged the Ethiopian Orthodox Church to set up in Jamaica to teach them about worshipping differently.

So in my view he did not get that.

Being aware of Nazarene vow as spoken about in the Jewish Torah does not mean they understood the context of dreadlocks, marijuana and so many things that were already taking place in the Caribbean before their time. Earlier on this board I mentioned the influence of Hinduism on Rasta in Trinidad, and I believe it was the same in Jamaica. Ethiopian orthodox priests sent by Selassie to Jamaica demanded that Rastas cut their locks in order to be baptized.
(You can always check with Ras Marcus to see if I am correct about this.)

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Re: Will the Real Christians Please Stand?

By Ayinde
December 20, 2004

The typical Christian response to reports of Christian abuses is, "not everyone who says he or she is a Christian is of Christ", or words similar to that effect. But at the 'heart' of these 'believers' is a missionary zeal born out by their arrogance and disrespect of other people's values.

One Christian tactic often used is to go through indigenous values to draw from the silliest interpretations in an attempt to invalidate them. Of course, they don't like it when others show the silliness in their beliefs. They don't admit that the power behind the spread of their beliefs was/is brute force/murder, and not benevolent deeds.

Missionaries are generally characterized by their unwillingness to learn about other people's values, unwillingness to respect people's right to operate as they choose, especially when other peoples' cultural ways clearly do not infringe on the rights of others. When challenged on this, they usually give distorted interpretations of other people's values in an attempt to discredit them. They can always argue that people do the same with Christianity, but they fail to acknowledge when people condemn Christianity, they usually have real experiences and a living testimony of abuses, all done in the name of their 'one book'.

Try telling them that KRST was a natural state in the development of individuals (although different cultures have their own terms for that state, and various other states of consciousness), and was a part of most indigenous African cultures before people were plagued with Arab and European/Christian violence and elitism. Try telling them the oneness of KRST is the common truths that people realize when they raised their consciousness. Try telling them that each person is his or her own savior in their own right (although they need help from others). Tell them, and see how blasphemous they find these very old but true ideas.

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All Rastas are Perfect and Know all about HIM

Response by 'King David'
December 20, 2004

[[[ The typical Christian response to pieces like this is, "not everyone who says he or she is a Christian is of Christ", or words similar to that effect. But at the heart of these 'believers' is a missionary zeal born out by their arrogance and disrespect of other people's values. ]]]

It is good of you to judge the "heart of these 'believers'".

How is this in harmony to the words of Haile Selassie I ?

"In pondering over the life, the goodness, humanity and sacrifice of the Savior of the World, in looking at the laws which He gave us, how much should we be ashamed to call ourselves Christian people, and yet not to follow His footsteps. Had we been Christain people, had we been worthy of the name, peace would have reigned on all the face of the Earth, and would have risen to the level of the immortal angels who always glorify the Eternal God, and the peoples of the world would no longer have remained divided into hostile camps. " Word of Haile Selassie I

[[[ One Christian tactic often used is to go through indigenous values to draw from the silliest interpretations in an attempt to invalidate them. Of course, they don't like it when others show the silliness in their beliefs. They don't admit that the power behind the spread of their beliefs was/is brute force/murder, and not benevolent deeds. ]]]

Is there a way to [[[ show the silliness in their beliefs ]]] and Hold up to the Teaching of Haile Selassie ?

"It is quite true that there is no perfection in humanity. From time to time we make mistakes, we do commit sins but even as we do that, deep in Our hearts as Christains we know we have forgivness from the Almighty. He taught Us all who seek Him shall Find Him. To live in this Healthy Life, a Christain Life, is what makes Me follow Jesus Christ."

For Christian people no day is as glorious and as joyous as the day on which they commemorate the Nativity of Our Savior Jesus Christ. On this day each one of Us tries to forget his worries and his anxieties and endeavours to alleviate those of his loved ones and friends, and to forgive those who have wronged Him, so as only to mediate on the life of Him who is Supreme Lord in All.

How is Haile Selassie I term for "Christian" any different from the term you use for Christians, you really need to set up a distinction here, or run the risk of looking hypocritical.

[[[ Missionaries are generally characterized by their unwillingness to learn about other people's values, unwillingness to respect people's right to operate as they choose, especially when other peoples' cultural ways clearly do not infringe on the rights of others. When challenged on this, they usually give distorted interpretations of other people's values in an attempt to discredit them. They can always argue that people do the same with Christianity, but they fail to acknowledge when people condemn Christianity, they usually have real experiences and a living testimony of abuses, all done in the name of their 'one book'. ]]]

their 'one book'
What is the problem with their [[[one book]]]
"Today man sees all his hopes and aspirations crumbling before him. He is perplexed and knows not whither he is drifting. But he must realise that the Bible is his refuge, and the rallying point for all humanity. In it man will find the solution of his present difficulties and guidance for his future action, and unless he accepts with clear conscienceof the Bible and its great Message, he cannot hope for salvation. For my part I glory in the Bible. "

Does Haile Selassie I have a problem with the 'one book'?
If he didi where is it mentioned, and does He speak this highly of any other "one book"?

[[[ Try telling them that KRST was a natural state in the development of individuals (although different cultures have their own terms for that state, and various other states of consciousness), and was a part of most indigenous African cultures before people were plagued with Arab and European/Christian violence and elitism. Try telling them the oneness of KRST is the common truths that people realize when they raised their consciousness. Try telling them that each person is his or her own savior in their own right (although they need help from others). Tell them, and see how blasphemous they find these very old but true ideas. ]]]

Which of these doctrines were adopted by Haile Selassie I, where each person has 'his own unique christ'?
can you show me evidence of any of these doctrined being taught by Haile Selassie I or his church?

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All Rastas are Perfect and Know all about HIM

Response by Ayinde
December 21, 2004

You are putting this comparison of statements to the wrong person.

I am already on record stating that I did not agree with everything Haile Selassie did. I consider him ONE of our MANY esteemed African personalities. All the African personalities I admire made mistakes, in my view.

If Haile Selassie said or encouraged anything that is different to MY words and actions, then you can simply take it as a sign that I disagreed with him, or I am disagreeing with the context or interpretation YOU are giving to what was said or done. Disagreeing with him does not, on its own, mean either of us is right or wrong. It simply means I disagree.

I am not a follower of anyone or anything but myself. Seeing that I have free will, I have the ability to think and act in my best interest. Knowing myself removes the need to have to 'one-up' about ideas on divinity.

Truth is not a democracy - determined by how many people vote or agree.

Consider this quote:

"While Rastafari certainly maintains a sense of family, it is not a unified bloc. Several subgroups and varying beliefs vie for the soul of Rastafari. These differences in theology, lifestyle, and behaviors all fit within the broad umbrella of Rastafari because, at its heart, it is an Afro-Caribbean identity movement--not primarily a religion with clearly defined, universally accepted dogma and doctrines." 

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